@swetland @debacle I'm not sure. I've always liked the idea of XMPP but have not followed it closely. For me, I don't think docker is as much a deal breaker, but I do wonder if there's a way to have a better CLI around docker that takes off some of the rough edges. Just having a static binary still means you would need to muck with init/systemd files so I guess a lot depends on what system admin warts you're most used to 🙃
@swetland Probably would take longer but I think developers (myself VERY much included) are bad at estimating 😆
I've often wondered if #irc or #xmpp could have been Slack/Discord with better clients.
In some ways, an irc client with a built in pastebin/imagebin is pretty close
(I am sure someone will correct my over simplification 🙃)
@debacle @kfdm Is there an XMPP server that's modern and stable and reasonable for someone who doesn't want to be a fulltime sysadmin to setup and run?
I feel like single static binary self-contained server is the sweet spot. Something you could stand up on a small VPS instance in under half an hour without a ton of suffering.
If I have to be dealing with docker or worse, or installing a separate database and various other ancillary tidbits, ugh, way too many things that can break...
@swetland @debacle I'm not sure. I've always liked the idea of XMPP but have not followed it closely. For me, I don't think docker is as much a deal breaker, but I do wonder if there's a way to have a better CLI around docker that takes off some of the rough edges. Just having a static binary still means you would need to muck with init/systemd files so I guess a lot depends on what system admin warts you're most used to 🙃
I'm not aware of a single static #Jabber/ #XMPP server. Somebody needs to write such a thing!
Both #ejabberd by @ejabberd and #prosody by @prosodyim are pretty easy to install and maintain. Esp. if using distro packages.
If docker is an option, there is #snikket by @snikket_im, a pre-configured prosody.
Maybe check #openfire by @news or #tigase by @tigase? Never tried them.
@debacle @kfdm @swetland @news
As an Openfire developer: we're providing installers for most distributions. The only dependency is a Java runtime environment. It can use an embedded database (which is shipped with Openfire) if you don't want the hassle of setting up an external database. The only annoying bits that you'll need to do is DNS and TLS certificates.
I feel like getting a reasonable client protocol is the key. Keep it simple. Leave some room for it to expand and evolve. Personally I'd lean toward something that's compact binary to be friendly for mobile networks, but realistically terse JSON is probably the modern middle ground.
Once you have some stakes in the ground with a client protocol and a basic small group server that's trivial to stand up, folks can explore clients and fancier server implementations in parallel.
@swetland moderation tho?
@whitequark I'm sort of most interested in starting with small community usage (I'm on a couple 30-200 person group-of-friends style Discord instances, for example) where hand moderation by a small number of admins remains practical.
Get the client protocol to a reasonable state and you can iterate on clients and client features while scaling the serverside to larger communities (requiring heavier duty admin/moderation/acl/etc features) proceeds separately.
Just kicking ideas around, though.
@whitequark I also don't really think I want to do this personally... I'm really enjoying this silly compiler project, I not really into web development and I absolutely loathe mobile development...
But I also see a lot of "well we have to go back to IRC or XMPP", and I'm not convinced they're the solutions... and I also don't think you necessarily can solve all the problems at all scales right from the start... but I absolutely believe it's possible to build something that's not just awful.
@swetland social media and chat protocols are made or broken by moderation; I regard anything that doesn't start with moderation as unserious (IRC already exists, idk)
@whitequark What are table stakes for basic moderation for small community persistent chat servers?
I've been an admin (one of 3) of a ~100 person group-of-friends Discord for a few years now and the admin/mod features we've ended up using were:
- basic user management (invite/kick)
- basic message management (delete, pin)
- basic channel ACLs (who can post where)
Admittedly we're a pretty low-drama group of old friends now in our 40s or 50s.
@swetland yeah, that's unfortunately not very representative. absolute baseline is the ability to block other users without the latter knowing (Discord, famously, gets this wrong); you also need a reporting tool and (probably) a resilient enough form of identity that you can understand what happened post-factum in a conflict even if some people changed their (nick)names
beyond that, my suggestion is to consider how you would handle vicious social conflict between two people where you can't blindly trust the statements by either of them. which tools would you need to deal with this? how will you prevent the server from blowing up in the aftermath?
@whitequark That's probably too minimal for many small group scenarios, but I suspect you could cover a fair number of use cases without a *ton* of additional features. A report mechanism probably is essential for flagging things to the mods/admins, I expect.
